Ford Fiesta ST Forum banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Since most have not had the oportunity to hear a world class competition audio install it sometimes it hard to understand the way things are done there until you do get the chance. Once you hear one you will be blown away as to the difference over factory systems and nearly all shop installs, DIY, etc and the info is just not generally known. My goal is to help you achieve incredible sound but with the minimal cost in funds and added weight.


Coming from the audio competition world, Sound Quality that is, you seldom see rear speakers and if so just one or two mids, no tweeters, playing a narrow and low level fill as some installs benefit from it. Of course you need a good processor/EQ/crossover to do so.

It is best to spend more up front on a proper sound stage and more power as that is where the music is supposed to come from and rear speakers in doors are in a horrible location to begin with. I just take them out, seal up the doors with a little deadening and done with them.

-------------------

Since my ST is going to see a great deal of track time I am going to be very careful when deadening, adding gear, etc....to minimize weight added as well as where placed.

The tweeters in the doors are in a horrible location, not sure they are usable at all yet. Center speaker location might work for tweeters aimed away from each other. I might have to put tweeters in the A pillars and not use either stock location.

The best method in many vehicles to get a great sound stage, once you know how to do it that is, kick panels for mids and tweets, if a three way then midbass in the doors. I have done two and three way setups with great success.

The easiest way to a great sound stage though may not be as optimized as kick panels, again vehicle but more importantly in all installs, knowing how to aim and phase them properly, crossover setup, etc......I have had great success with this as well, tweeters in A pillars aimed directly at each other, mounted 2" above the higher point on the dash, mids in doors.

Sometimes we cannot aim them at each other and have them low and forward enough so have to keep them low and aimed up a bit, sometimes aimed slightly forward, never back toward us....

Except, there can be pod mounted or dash corner enclosures made, normally using a mid and tweet or wideband drivers, you really need to know what you are doing to make this work and most simply do not have the knowledge to pull it off to sound right or look right.

I prefer stealthy installs so never do pods, even my pillar mounted tweets just get wrapped in grill cloth and pushed through the smallest opening then glued in place so they are barely noticeable.

I may use the little dash top side window locations for the tweeters, lots of testing to be done to find out for sure.

---------------------------

It will take a bit of time to get started on this car as I have to finish the high end 12" sub install under the dash in my Duramax dually, make the amp mounts in the console, another stealth install that will sound incredible when done:) I had to go this route as our Akita and Irish Wolfhound own the back seat as they will own the back seat and cargo area of the ST.....

Rick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
The fact that you are going to take a car that "is going to see a great deal of track time" and start piling on the pounds, just suspect to me. This car is so rattly and loose its going to require some serious deadening work to go audiophile on it. Adding even 20 lbs to a car that "is going to see a great deal of track time" is silly imo. Adding the 40-50 it is going to take to put in a sub and basic deadening in seems like a bad idea for a track car to me. To each their own i guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am going to do this and reduce the weight, have better front to rear distribution, etc.....I have been into car audio and performance for 46 years and built many fast and lower weight cars.

I took 50 lbs out in two minutes, spare, jack, cover, will replace them with an ultra light sub enclosure, mini amp, small compressor and patch kit and lower weight cover.

There is only a few spots in the hatch than need deadening mat.

I use aluminum channels bonded to larger flex prone surfaces and just the right amount of mat as required per area as well as fill some areas with foam.

Then I use a great deal of Ensolite foam, a superb thermal and acoustical barrier all over the car, some thicker accustical foam under the dash, seats, inside pillars if I do not use expanding foam there, especially the rear qtr panels.

Alumalite for baffles, new cargo floor, any other place it works for the needs.....

Silicone sealer on all overlapping plastic trim pieces and anywhere the panels and body meet that can resonate.

Tie wraps on anything I can that will reduce its tendency to resonate..

This car will never be limo quiet like my Duramax dually(100 hrs labor in sound deadening) due to stiff suspension bushings and the audio is not going to be ear bleeding loud but it will be far better than stock or most any audio shop has ever done as it will have a proper sound stage......

--------------
Example of what I have done, C6 vette:
Single 10" sub in lightest enclosure ever made for one
Two amps in the foot well where stock bose amp used to be,
High end speakers
Alumalite door filler panels and speaker baffels
Aluminum channels to stiffen door skins
36 sq ft of deadening(due to construction of trunk floor mostly, just needed more than some cars so this was 40% of the added weight)
3 yards Ensolite
Stealth install, huge improvement in audio and noise reduction as well as heat as these cars are very hot at the console

Total added weight after removing the horrid Blows system, 45lbs.

If the car was build differently in the rear it would of been 35 lbs and this is still without removing anything besides stock stereo stuff.
------------

I could take 100 lbs out of the ST if I really dug into it but just not that much time for this project and add back just 30 lbs or so.

I opted for the sunroof because we need the air for the dogs or I could of saved a bit more:(

------------------

My son and I built one car that won audio comps, street, raced in TT events, did exceptionally well in all things, sound deadened, caged, two seats and harnesses, AC and weighed 275 less than stock with a full interior even when I put the back seat back in just because I could. That took hundreds of hours which I do not have to spare on this project.

------------------

Anybody can stick in a stereo, pile on some deadening, I work out the ways to accomplish what I want and keep the performance intact or make it better, actually it has always been better:)

Most sincerely,
Rick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
i am sorry, but if you remove weight and then add weight, for the purpose of the track its all just adding weight. How much more than stock it weighs isn't relevant. It's how much more it weighs than the lightest you care to pay to make it weigh.

I mean in one thread you are talking about redrilling rpf1's to save a pound per corner, while at the same time buying a car with a sunroof to get air in for your dogs? The car has 4 windows.

There is no such thing as a car that wins in any form of racing and wins audio events unless you are doing a full tear out between the track and audio competitions. You just cant make up for 100lbs unless you are in some odd class with minimal competition locally.

I think i am confused cause every one of your posts says, I make no sacrafice best conevable x. Then the next sentience is well except that i make numerous compromise on everything. Life doesn't work that way in my experience. You cant have the best of everything at the same time. Maybe you are a billionare and that's how you do it? Just trying to understand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
488 Posts
i am sorry, but if you remove weight and then add weight, for the purpose of the track its all just adding weight. How much more than stock it weighs isn't relevant. It's how much more it weighs than the lightest you care to pay to make it weigh.

I mean in one thread you are talking about redrilling rpf1's to save a pound per corner, while at the same time buying a car with a sunroof to get air in for your dogs? The car has 4 windows.

There is no such thing as a car that wins in any form of racing and wins audio events unless you are doing a full tear out between the track and audio competitions. You just cant make up for 100lbs unless you are in some odd class with minimal competition locally.

I think i am confused cause every one of your posts says, I make no sacrafice best conevable x. Then the next sentience is well except that i make numerous compromise on everything. Life doesn't work that way in my experience. You cant have the best of everything at the same time. Maybe you are a billionare and that's how you do it? Just trying to understand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
"I mean in one thread you are talking about redrilling rpf1's to save a pound per corner"

I do hope you realize weight is the enemy of performance and where that weight is located is many times more critica. Unsprung weight is bad, always, rotational weight where the wheels and tires are concerned is a killer of all things in performance and harder on the suspension and chassis. Another bad place is the top of the car, why I have spent the time and money replacing a whole roof with a custom carbon kevlar roof.

"while at the same time buying a car with a sunroof to get air in for your dogs? The car has 4 windows."

A 90 lb Akita and a growing Irish Wolfhound require a fair amount of air, not just to breath. I am also making a locking prop rod for the hatch lid to keep it partly open and picked a lighter color car to reflect more heat instead of absorb it.

--------------------

As for the rest.


Just because it is not what normally is done does not mean it does not have merit, there are many that cannot afford more than one car and would like to do more than one thing with theirs, I have done this for many many years and care to share what I have learned so others can do the same.

To me this is far better than standing by watching people ruin the performance of a car as great as the ST with things like stance, big arse subs, I like to show we can do many things at the same time. Anybody can do this but not many have been exposed as to how to do it well. All it takes is a bit of imagination, a bit of work, doing things others just do not do, anything else just ends up being just copy cat stuff after awhile. I have seen tens of thousands of show cars, race cars, street cars, etc and few ever excite me because most are all the same but those few built by true adventurers, artists, craftsmen of incredible caliber, they enthuse me to do more than I ever thought I could do.

------------------

Of course that said, if somebody thinks stance and huge subs are what they want, fine by me but once they get a chance to see real performance enhanced and then still get to have some fun with other aspects of the car.......that is what I love to help them do:).

I like taking a car and making it better in many ways then seeing what it will really do, on the street to a safe limit, on track full out, audio comps(I do not attend those often, done to many already but love to show what a real system can sound like)

I have been at a major show and had all kinds of high end show cars around me but had a line across the hall for three days of people waiting just to hear the audio system in my old Tacoma and all getting out grinning ear to ear, blown away by how incredibly real it sounded, it was my daily driver with $20k in custom gear in it. Over a few months a symphony conductor, well known pro musicians, owner of the oldest home audio shop in the US, all blown away by something then had no idea could be done in a vehicle.

I also have another project I am selling as just do not want to put in the thousands of hours to finish it, 02 Z06 chassis stretched 16", my ex race car, 53 Studebaker body, the really sleek short one, forged LS1, blown, 18x12 front wheels, 19x13 rears, full cage, full fire retardant interior, fire system, custom HLCD(mids and tweet frequencies), custom 10" mids, dual 21" neo magnet subs, IB mounted so only adding 50 lbs to the car, full tilt race capable, open road events, Bonneville run, street car under 3k lbs and built to drive anywhere anytime on pump gas. I have built that car many times in my head and know exactly how it would turn out, part of why I no longer want to do it, not really a challenge anymore, just a lot of dirty work.

I sold my pure track car last summer, it was not quite done because I decided to retire and have more funds to travel with. No pretensions of dual or triple use, it had $15k just in suspension and I am far from rich, in fact really could not afford to run it when I retired so why finish it? I stopped at $80k when I originally budgeted $30k for the build, it would of broken track records for any E36 ever built but it was only for HPDE and TT. It was also going to be faster than I am so I was arranging to meet with pro drivers to really see what it could do.

I have a 332ti project on my lift I started next while waiting for the ST to come out to test drive it, once I drove the ST I knew it would do all I need, with a bit more power, a bit more sound deadening, a better audio system.....if I can do that and make it lighter than stock so it can fill all the rolls really well.....I do not care what class it has to run when doing any autocrosses or TT events, I could make it anything I want, I just want to go have some fun and not consider winning anything but it will be a fast ST;)

Think outside the box? There is no box but what we put around us ourselves or let others do;)

And I will probably die without a penny in the bank, any money I ever had in my life ended up in things like the list below, racing being the one that eats it faster that it can be printed!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Colin1337

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
From your track experience, I am just suprised you would be willing to give up any lb/hp. The track is only fun to me if I can scare myself a little bit. I am only a few years into it and I still think that requires 12:1 lbs/hp or so. Without that you are pretty much just driving a momentum car, which gets boring really fast unless you are competing wheel to wheel. Mind you I wouldn't mind taking the FiST out on the track just to see how it feels at the limit, but I would think 1 day a year would be about all I would care to afford.

I get the whole 1 car limit thing, I tried going that way in the past. I get that your fast approaching RV lifestyle gives you no option in this case but at the same time, you aren't building a FiST racecar. You are building a jack of all trades. Never said that wasn't possible, I just don't see how race cars are relevant and I believe that is where my confusion came in. All the race car talk and audio competition talk confused me into thinking you were planning to build an actually competitive track and audio car from 1 vehicle, and your vehicle of choice was the FiST. Which everyone knows isn't possible. I have built a number of 1xxx whp vettes, that doesn't mean I think that has any relevance to my FiST plans. I guess if the plan is to just make a car with a pretty good stereo that you can put on a track and not have to worry about killing yourself or someone else. I don't disagree the FiST could fit the bill with a fairly small amount of effort and for the total cost be quite fun. It is a pretty terrible choice at the same time to make an audio or track competitive car, much less both.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Looks like we are at a bit more of an understanding, thanks:)

I agree to a great deal as most just do not take the effort to do things far beyond the norm, I have, it cost a fortune in time more than money but I did it just to be different as I am not like most people I have ever known, more a curse than a blessing I might add!

The fact you have built monster Vettes yet enjoy the ST is a great thing to hear, you get it, cars can be huge fun no matter how fast if used in the right way.

I drove 510 Datsuns for over 10 years, the most power I ever had was maybe 150 HP but well under 2k lbs and the car was as tricked out as it could be back in the early 70's gutted so much it was like riding in a tin can full of rocks....but I beat the crap out of almost anything on the road and on skinny tires as that was all there was. I won most every event entered, took on dirt bikes on dual track courses and never lost...

Sideways in the mountain dirt roads with trees coming at your door, 100MPH into a 50 marked asphalt corner, slipping more and more to the edge and hoping to run out of turn before road, again 100MPH in rain and even in snow......I am lucky to be alive 100 times over.

It is so easy to go fast compared to back then, the main ingredients, power and tires, power is cheaper, tires are light years better, so are cars in most ways.

I may of mentioned the E36 M3 I was building, got out of control as usual, it would of been a very very fast car, more than I needed for sure, once I retired and decided to drive on unknown tracks all over NA. The 332ti I have on the lift would of been quite quick with 300HP and 2700 lbs, highly modified suspension, 255 tires all around, some aero, etc..I just do not have the time or energy to finish it so selling it off. The ST will have to do but it will be fun at least just to drive on the tracks at decent speeds, it just needs to do more than that, why the audio, deadening, etc....but I will spend some time making the best of it and in the end it will still be lighter than most if not nearly all street driven cars with the same mods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Any chance you want to get back on topic for the thread you created?
I'm currently planning my stereo install so something lightweight is relevant to my interests.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks, that is a great idea:)

This car should be pretty easy to sound deaden in most areas at least, I will start on the cargo floor and sides first as they really need it badly, the worst offenders by far.
I will try to do some this weekend though I have a ton of things going on I am excited to start working on the car.

Have a great weekend!
Rick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
946 Posts
Sounds a lot like pissing upwind with your mouth open..but hey whatever makes ya happy! Lol. Id like to do the Kicker factory sub but they're asking over $600 for it!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,150 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I have some 6.5 subs I bought for another project awhile back I might try in the rear doors with some decent power on them if I can find the time or else I will have no rear door speakers at all, like 99% of sound quality competition vehicle installs have.

I have designed and built hundreds of subs for Subbies and Vettes using ID or Arc Audio 10's, before I retired, and have been very pleasee with them, 17lbs in the Subbies, 19lbs in the Vettes, a regular 8 is a bit small for my tastes.

For those that are OK without a spare tire, I am on that list, there is a ton of room for a regular sub, amp, jack, small compressor and a tool kit even.

Perhaps there is a good shallow 12 that is not to heavy for those wanting to keep the spare tire just flip it, make new mount to hold it down, put the sub in the well of the wheel and tie the jack down on the cargo floor, etc.....most if not all shallow subs perform like the next smaller size or less. I will look into the shallow options as have not checked them out in some time.

Perhaps a poll on the forum might be a good idea as I could design one of each, with and without spare tire, and have them built for others, it would be done by somebody else that would take on the job and supply them, I would just make it happen to get you guys some real bass that fits.

Most subs I have heard like that Kicker, which I have not heard so cannot pass judgement on it, are not that great for the cost, usually just not very musical or play very low.

Side loading helps but up firing will couple to the cabin and increase the output dramatically in most all cases.

Rear firing does the same but that would not work here very well, we have plenty of space for up firing sub(s)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Stock speakers almost always need upgraded but I had an Infinity system in my 07 Tundra LTD that had great speakers, jsut needed more power. I talked the engineer in charge of the design and tuning as was very impressed with that part, just had no budget for decent power. It was one of the most accurate in sound stage, height, depth, center image, etc....I have ever heard from the factory.

The Fiesta might need more power instead of better speakers, which I will determine as speaker are much easier to deal with but it might need both. Unfortunately the imaging is not so great due to speaker locations though the center one helps, I can try changing how they aim, damping down the output of them or the side tweeters, etc.......maybe I can find an easy way to make for a better system.

My goal is to have a fine system for low cost, ease of install and low weight.

If my car was purely a track car I would yank it all out of course but it has to be our site seeing, grocery getting, dog hauler and do the best on track I can make it do and be reliable and easy to maintain as not able to have a full shop with me as we travel all over.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
"Pissing in the wind"

In the very short time frame, less than a year, that I competed in audio competition, I beat a world champion twice with two different builds for us both, was published a couple of times, one a 7 page article, met some of the all time greats in car audio and did volunteer work driving 100 miles each way, after work, with probably the best installer ever, started a very successful business in the trade, all while working 50 hours a week, commuting, building my installs in my back yard with no garage, did a full custom interior in my truck including upholstery, body work and custom paint, put on 20k miles going to events and had my kids for the summer and took them all over.

I guess I am just all talk;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
Perhaps there is a good shallow 12 that is not to heavy for those wanting to keep the spare tire just flip it, make new mount to hold it down, put the sub in the well of the wheel and tie the jack down on the cargo floor, etc.....most if not all shallow subs perform like the next smaller size or less. I will look into the shallow options as have not checked them out in some time.

Perhaps a poll on the forum might be a good idea as I could design one of each, with and without spare tire, and have them built for others, it would be done by somebody else that would take on the job and supply them, I would just make it happen to get you guys some real bass that fits.
I am concerned with the capacity of a shallow sub as well as they all seem to have rather low xmax though i am thinking its possible they may work for my needs as I wouldn't be interested in overpowering the stock door speakers dramaticly. At the same time my feeling is if i am going to put a sub and amp in the fiesta to fill it out, i think I can get away with a shallow 10" and an amp along the right side of the spare. I wouldn't be willing to give up any useable space or my spare.

Flipping the spare wont really work as the jack is under there. I already looked into that option. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
"Pissing in the wind"

In the very short time frame, less than a year, that I competed in audio competition, I beat a world champion twice with two different builds for us both, was published a couple of times, one a 7 page article, met some of the all time greats in car audio and did volunteer work driving 100 miles each way, after work, with probably the best installer ever, started a very successful business in the trade, all while working 50 hours a week, commuting, building my installs in my back yard with no garage, did a full custom interior in my truck including upholstery, body work and custom paint, put on 20k miles going to events and had my kids for the summer and took them all over.

I guess I am just all talk;)

I don't think anyone said you were all talk? I think its easy enough to find your web page or your other forum action in the past if anyone cares too. You sure as hell do talk yourself up a lot though, somewhat off putting imo. At the end of the day, assuming people don't run you off i assume you will be an asset to this board.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
I don't think anyone said you were all talk? I think its easy enough to find your web page or your other forum action in the past if anyone cares too. You sure as hell do talk yourself up a lot though, somewhat off putting imo. At the end of the day, assuming people don't run you off i assume you will be an asset to this board.
He's certainly impressed with himself and his 46 years of car audio installations. If he ever stops talking and posts some photos I'm curious to see some of his 8-track or vinyl installs from the '70s :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
488 Posts
"Pissing in the wind"

In the very short time frame, less than a year, that I competed in audio competition, I beat a world champion twice with two different builds for us both, was published a couple of times, one a 7 page article, met some of the all time greats in car audio and did volunteer work driving 100 miles each way, after work, with probably the best installer ever, started a very successful business in the trade, all while working 50 hours a week, commuting, building my installs in my back yard with no garage, did a full custom interior in my truck including upholstery, body work and custom paint, put on 20k miles going to events and had my kids for the summer and took them all over.

I guess I am just all talk;)
Source? There is always that "one" guy on every forum.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I do apologize for coming across as I have, not my normal style usually though sometimes a bit hard headed! I am far more just into what I do and I love helping others with info on doing it themselves as well. I just get a bit wound up and have been under the weather so not quite myself, I am known as one to go to for advice and really care about all those I can help whether it was business or just fun, fun business, etc......:) I had a rather rough childhood, abandoned, abused a bit, got into some trouble, it took years to find myself and create a good life which I have in abundance now. I have helped many get a start with business advice, helped hundreds get back on track when in the US Navy for 20 years, all that I do is to live life fully and help others in anyway I can do the same, the only limits we have are those we let others impose on us. I never really learned the limits, bad or good, except the hard way most of the time over many years and many mistakes, I still have a long way to go, everyday I live as long as I live.

------------------

As mentioned a shallow sub generally puts out about what a step smaller in size will do, if you put it facing up it will couple with the interior design and give more output so it would be louder than it might seem, loud enough for you, or me, hard to say until done.

-----------------

I did mention or meant to more clearly the jack it would have to be relocated but it does not take up a great deal of space so flipping the spare could work for somebody if they needed that solution.

-----------------

I have hardly ever posted pics of what I do, usually just so busy doing it, running a very busy business, family time, literally falling out of my chair at the end of every long day.

I have a huge list of projects to complete and get our house sold and on the road in the next few months, after that I will finally have time to slow down and even post more pics though I will get some up here soon:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Colin1337
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top